[identity profile] moonlettuce.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] sga_santa
Since there have been some concerns raised over the fact that the stories are now going to be posted to a website, I'd like to clarify some things.

The original intention was to post the stories to LJ via either Al, myself, or an admin account that Al and I would set up, in order to maintain the anonymity (damn, I had to think about spelling that *g*) of the authors.

Then we had 82 people sign up.

LJ would have been a lovely way to post the stories (and believe us we thought of everything, including setting up a completely different LJ to just post the stories in), but ultimately, it comes down to one simple fact. Posting 82 stories on the [livejournal.com profile] sga_santa community would absolutely flood people's friends lists.

We decided that the easiest way to get around this was to post them to a website and to post a link to the index page in the LJ.

When the reveal is done (and we're aiming for Jan 1st with this), I will remove the story of anyone who wishes it and include an external link to wherever they have posted the story.

If anyone still has issues with the way this is going to be done, then please let me know.

Date: 2005-12-13 12:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alfirin-kirinki.livejournal.com
Posting 82 stories on the [info]sga_santa community would absolutely flood people's friends lists.

What is stopping people from switching so they aren't 'watching' the comm? Then they are free to browse at will.

Would it be possible for us to be responsible for our own unveiling? As in, submitting a link, rather than a fic, which is only unlocked on the launch date? The long and the short of it is that the authors of these fics aren't going to stay 'secret' for very long, as they are inevitably going to spread through the LJ comms - so there doesn't seem much point in being too serious in hiding them. If they are posted and then replaced with links it will meet the same conclusion: people will know who submitted the fic - so why go to the extra bother of uploading and then deleting and replacing with a link?

Wouldn't it be easier to post a link in the first place?

After some recent events I was concerned about this project anyway, but I want to be sure that my fic is formatted the way it was intended to be.

Because I'm a picky bint.

Date: 2005-12-13 02:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amireal.livejournal.com
The long and the short of it is that the authors of these fics aren't going to stay 'secret' for very long, as they are inevitably going to spread through the LJ comms - so there doesn't seem much point in being too serious in hiding them.

Here's my question, and I'd have to check the rules to be sure.

But is there a moratorium on posting to other forums under your own name? That's usually how these things work. You get your anonymous story posting and you have to wait a week or so before being allowed to reveal yourself to the general public.

As for ensuring format, it's possible for you so format it and save it as an html file and send that. I'm sure the webmasters would be happy to post it as is.

Date: 2005-12-13 07:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alfirin-kirinki.livejournal.com
From the userinfo:

"Because this is a secret santa all reponses are to be posted through the moderators. The names of who did what will then be revealed when all requests are accounted for."

But as they're going to post links to external pages now, anyway that will be a literal thing with the unveilings. Assuming people don't post to their own webpages with obscure names that don't connect to them, or something like that.

As for ensuring format, it's possible for you so format it and save it as an html file and send that. I'm sure the webmasters would be happy to post it as is.

Hmm. Well, that's precisely the issue I've already had, so I can't really agree.

Date: 2005-12-13 12:47 am (UTC)
amalthia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] amalthia
i think this is a brilliant idea. Not sure why anyone has issues with their stories being on a website vs LJ???? weird.

Date: 2005-12-13 01:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
I don't understand why you don't merely create a masterlist on LJ itself? For example: like this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/saeva/22700.html) or this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/lasultrix/141943.html).

It involves a single post and a full collection on Live Journal. As [livejournal.com profile] alfirin_kirinki said, the anonymity will last about two minutes because we're all in the same fandom and we all know each other at least as friends of friends (sometimes 'of friends' once more but it's a small world relatively) and it's making at least three of your participants uncomfortable.

As I said earlier, unless I can be assured that nothing I submit is altered in any way -- and that includes *adding* a rating or warning -- I will not be at all comfortable submitting here. You may wonder what the difference is between an LJ post I can't control and an off-site archive, but that is exactly the difference. I gave permission, when deciding to participate, for one -- the Live Journal posting -- and I did not give permission for an off-site archive.

Frankly, it's a LiveJournal holiday exchange and I feel -- and I'm sure I'm not alone -- that it should *stay* on LiveJournal.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-12-13 01:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
Oh, and personally, I'd like the 82 stories showing up so I could browse through like that. And if I didn't like it I'd just change my filters or take the comm off 'watch'.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-12-13 01:59 am (UTC)
amalthia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] amalthia
not everyone uses filters and I hate browsing through 82 stories like that, it's a big pain in the ass, and people end up missing something. On [livejournal.com profile] sga_flashfic during the Harlequin challenge when 100 stories were posted in a 2 week period....it was impossible to read them all at once. I think a website with teh stories laid out makes it easier for people to just click and go down the list.

Date: 2005-12-13 02:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
First, someone could easily chose, around the day of the reveal, to unclick "watch this community."

Second, I think a masterlist -- like that linked above -- would make perfect sense *and* be on LJ.

Third, I did not give permission for my work to be archived on a website outside of LJ. Period. I would not have signed up for this exchange had an outside archive that was not automated (so, say, not like Yuletide) been stipulated at the outset.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-12-13 02:40 am (UTC)
amalthia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] amalthia
well as long as the master list can stay annoymous I don't have a problem with it. I think it would be great if they can do both.

We just have two opposite opinions on this topic of posting fics to a website or not.

but out of curiousity because this is bothering me, what do you have against websites and having your fic archived outside of LJ???

I'm not the only one that wants to know either. I've been having a running discussion with a friend of mine that noticed that people aren't posting their fics anymore outside of LJs and that the website archives aren't posting nearly as many stories as they used to.

Date: 2005-12-13 03:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
Our difference of opinion doesn't come on the topic of posting fic to a website or not, it comes from when to do so.

I have nothing against website and archive posting: I have my own website here (http://www.koanju.com/) with my co-writer, we have a page at Skyehawke (http://archive.skyehawke.com/authors.php?no=291), I archive my non-explicit Harry Potter work at FictionAlley.Org (http://www.fictionalley.org/), and I participate in Yuletide (http://www.yuletidetreasure.org/). I even occasionally allow my meta to be posted on websites when the request is directed to me. To say nothing of the fact that LJ is a website and, in its own way, an archive and communities themselves often have masterlists or archives in the form of the 'Memories' section.

My issue here is that until six hours ago the exchange rules in the userinfo itself stated that the fics would be posted to Live Journal and that, if I hadn't picked up on a casual comment that they were going to be archived on a website (here ()) the moderators of this community may never have mentioned it. My issue here is that at no point did I give permission for my work to be archived on a website that is not this community at LiveJournal.com.

Would you be okay if, say, you posted a fic to, say, [livejournal.com profile] mckay_sheppard and someone there took it upon themselves to recreate your work elsewhere, without permission, and merely told you they had done so as an afterthought?

I did not give permission for my submission to be archived anywhere but this comminuty. When I signed up for this exchange I was under the impression -- because that was what was stated in the rules -- that it would only be archived here.

Yes, there are concerns that they will *ADD* (you use remove in your comment and in your rant on your LJ, but my concern is adding) a rating or warning that I do not wish to be attached to my work, but my primary problem is that the moderators are changing the rules at the last minute and in such a way that it violates what I agreed to upon signing up for this ficathon.

So, to make this absolutely clear: I have nothing against website archiving. I enjoy it on occasion. But I personally only archive on websites I trust and which I agree with philosophically -- they get my support because I like them and I put my work there because I trust that either a) I will be able to upload my own work like with Skyehawke or Yuletide or b) the moderation process has a firm system of checks, balances, and levels like with FictionAlley.

However, when I sign up for something on LJ, with the rules mentioning nothing about an off-site archive, then I expect it stay on Live Journal. I think this is a reasonable expectation and my reaction is not that "it's the end of the world" but rather that if a reasonable expectation is being thrown out of the water I wish for some assurances or I would rather independantly post my work and give it to my santa directly.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-12-13 04:06 am (UTC)
amalthia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] amalthia
Um the rant wasn't just about the sga_santa stuff it was the straw though, there was a whole lot of other stuff that's been building for a while.

For me I think as long as the LJ community moderators give advance warning and explain their reasons for changing something I'm okay with that. (after all from what I understand this website isn't going to be there forever and ever) I think if I have one set of expectations for something I don't like it changing quickly or without warning. One week is enough advance warning for me and possibly most other other people.

I get what you are saying about them stating what they planned to do in the rules, however it's not like [livejournal.com profile] moonlettuce created a site and posted the fics without warning or good reasons. She's letting us know a week in advance that with this many stories they don't think they can post the way they had originally intended.

I'm flexible enough to say okay the new way isn't that much different from posting on LJ, in fact a lot of LJ look like websites. The stories will still be avaible and people won't have their friend's lists bumped back 82 posts. I just don't think it occurred to them that anyone would have a problem if it's posted on the LJ or a webpage that says sga santa on the top.

I think next year if they decide to do this again they might post something about making a website if too many people sign up in the rules. I'm not sure if this is their first year doing this but I'm willing to make allowances for necessary changes.

I'll support which ever direction they decide to go either for a master list or a website or both.

Now one more question, would it have made a differnece if they wrote to everyone individually and asked permission to post our fics on a webpage instead of the LJ?

Date: 2005-12-13 04:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
To answer you from the end up: Yes, it would make a difference and here's why.

"webpage INSTEAD of the LJ" (emphasis mine)

As stands I have two choices: 1. I go along with something I'm not comfortable with and allow my fic to be posted on a website I did not expect or give permission for. 2. I refuse to do so, am withdrawn from participation, don't get the story I signed up for and do not get to *give* the story I have already written (and quite like) to the person I was assigned to.

In 2 clearly everyone loses, in 1 clearly I lose because it's something I'm uncomfortable with. They have not offered a 3 such as "For those who are not comfortable with this we will post to the LJ comm and merely link it from the webpage." (and even then, only if they had permission to link it from the webpage).

See, the thing is that no amount of advanced warning (save from the very outset) matters here because this isn't a volunteer community where each person is independantly posting -- it's an *exchange*.

I mean, aside from the two options above what options do you see? I refuse to default on this sort of thing unless I absolutely must (and we're talking 'came down with pneumonia, cannot sit up to type' or 'there is absolutely no way I can personally write this assignment, as I stated in my original post' -- in which case I'd ask to get it replaced -- must).

Therefore I'm going to have to let moonlettuce and alyse archive my fic somewhere I'm uncomfortable with it being archived because I don't want my assignment to miss out on a fic and, frankly, that just sucks.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-12-13 05:15 am (UTC)
amalthia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] amalthia
They may post your fics via the LJ if it matters that much to you and the few other people who care. In this situation it does kind of suck if you feel strongly about keeping your fics on LJ. I get your pov. I hope they are willing to make allowances for the few people who feel as strongly as you do. I don't think moonlettuce or alyse intended to make anyone unhappy with this change. I honestly wouldn't have occured to me either.

Your 3 sounds like a good compromise. they might be able to do something like that? Though I'm going to try avoiding the topic about needing permission to link...There are two sides to that issue and there's like no winning.

but as for coming up with other solutions. I can't think of any at the moment. This really sounds like something you'll have to discuss with moonlettuce or Alyse. I don't want to say they'll do something when I have no more control than you on this issue.

however, I really appreciate you explaing your pov to me. I understand a little better now.

Date: 2005-12-13 07:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alfirin-kirinki.livejournal.com
The attitudes of the people running the archives.

Date: 2005-12-13 08:22 am (UTC)
amalthia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] amalthia
most archivists that I've meet seem like pretty cool people and I haven't heard anything bad about anyone in particular, can be you more specific? I was mostly referring to the lack of SG-1 stories getting posted in the Area 52 archive. I think I should have been more specific in my last post as well. The other answer is that less people are writing SG-1 fics. But from what I can gather the other main archives are doing fine.

Date: 2005-12-13 12:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alfirin-kirinki.livejournal.com
I haven't heard anything bad about anyone in particular, can be you more specific?

That's between me and the archivist. I'm not here to stir, I'm just making my point.

Date: 2005-12-13 12:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alfirin-kirinki.livejournal.com
not everyone uses filters and I hate browsing through 82 stories like that, it's a big pain in the ass

So take the comm off 'watch' and the problem will be solved.

Date: 2005-12-13 02:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amireal.livejournal.com
Because those master lists will reveal the authors of the stories and the point of this was to have a litte fun for a bit right? Remain anonymous for a while. Really it's harder than you think to figure it out, even if you know everyone in the fandom.

Date: 2005-12-13 02:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
If anonymity is such a huge issue then a posting account with mod access should have been created or a website with automated uploading like Yuletide has -- and it should have been stated from the OUTSET.

You know, I can get over the website thing. Not my prefered way of doing it but there you go. What I get over is the 11th hour changing of the rules without any consultation of the group or, better yet, permission to the archive on a place outside this community.

Do -you- see anything above (in the original post or elsewhere in the community) that assuades the utter lack of permission issue?

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-12-13 01:57 am (UTC)
amalthia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] amalthia
Just because people think the anonymity won't last two minutes doesn't mean we shouldn't try to keep it. I don't plan on telling anyone which story is mine and considering I've never written for SGA I think I have a good shot of no one figuring me out. I'm probably not the only person who's never posted a fic for SGA or only posted one or two stories. I think there are very few authors people will recognize right away and even then...it could still be up in the air.

I guess to me LJ or website...as long as the story is readable it doesn't make that big a difference.

I think it also gives people not using LJ a chance to read the fics too. I don't think people should be obligated to get a LJ to enjoy the fandom or the fics, and it's slowly going that route. (anyway this is a separate issue all together)

I also don't think [livejournal.com profile] moonlettuce will remove warnings or screw up the formatting for the fics. and I'm probably not the only person that prefers their method to the one where everyone is unveiled before anyone has a chance to read the fics.

I'm sure there is probably an alternative solution...but keep in mind that some people actually like the idea of keeping things anonymous for at least a week. If it's only 3 or 4 people who don't like the idea of having their story posted on a website, thats not enough people to make global wide changes. I mean what about the 3 or 4 people who really like the idea of sharing their story via a website? maybe there's a way to do both?

Date: 2005-12-13 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] filenotch.livejournal.com
Can I be a complete jerk/idiot/whatever?

Is there anything wrong with posting them as they come in, then revealing authors later?

Also, not having done one of these before, I had no idea the original posts were to be anonymous. My fault for not reading carefully:
On December 24th all gift!fics will be posted to the Secret Santa webpage for your delight and delectation :-)

Because this is a secret santa all reponses are to be posted through the moderators. The names of who did what will then be revealed when all requests are accounted for.
To be lawyerly about it, the phrasing allows for all giftfics to be posted *by* December 24. You could start Christmas early and post the ones you have. If we aren't all procrastinators.

Date: 2005-12-13 05:14 am (UTC)
ext_1611: Isis statue (rodney is our king)
From: [identity profile] isiscolo.livejournal.com
Oh, man, I would love this. Because then the stories would be all spread out and I wouldn't have to read them all in a frenzy of OMG MUST READ THEM ALL NOW! I'd really like to read them while the authors are anonymous, because then I know I'm judging them strictly on their merits.

Date: 2005-12-13 05:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saeva.livejournal.com
I third this idea. I know at least a few people participating who have their fics ready to go and having a week (plus) of "Christmas" could be really cool.

It'll also take a lot of the pressure off the mods and not take the exchange away from the community.

- Andrea.

Date: 2005-12-13 02:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] margueritem.livejournal.com
I would just like to thank you again for organising this sga santa exchange. I'm looking forward to all the stories that will get posted - anonymously and in whatever form - on Xmas eve.

Such a nice gift to the fandom as a whole.

Date: 2005-12-13 03:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shetiger.livejournal.com
If you wind up having people drop out because of this issue, I am willing to pinch hit.

Date: 2005-12-13 03:31 am (UTC)
ext_1611: Isis statue (bite me)
From: [identity profile] isiscolo.livejournal.com
I ditto what [livejournal.com profile] docmichelle says - I'll pinch hit if you have dropouts due to this - with the caveat that it will depend on my finishing my [livejournal.com profile] yuletide story.

Date: 2005-12-13 03:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amireal.livejournal.com
Ditto isis and docmichelle

Thanks

Date: 2005-12-13 12:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emma-in-oz.livejournal.com
I just wanted to mention how much I appreciate the effort you are putting into organising this. I really appreciate your fannish commitment.

Date: 2005-12-13 01:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seiyaharris.livejournal.com
I'd assumed that they were going to be posted on a website from the beginning and was going to ask if me doing my own html (bold/italics and paragraph tages, that sort of thing) would be helpful and save you a little time.

My only real issue, is that the due date is nearly upon us and I have been procrastinating over the end for two weeks. Erk. lol

Am still free for pinch hitting if needed *g*

Date: 2005-12-13 11:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seiyaharris.livejournal.com
**is gleefully glomped**

You're welcome? *g*

Date: 2005-12-15 03:59 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
[livejournal.com profile] merry_smutmas doesn't seem to have a problem posting it to LJ and they have way more people in their exchange. You're making issues where there is none and alienating people by changing the rules for no good reason.

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